BMW ESP mil lamp

No fault indicated. Same as a bulb blown (or removed!).

They're telling us to pass & advise.

It's madness.

It creates an even more extensive range of items to issue a "dangerous advise" on.....which...if I'm correct is exactly what they are trying to eliminate!

Can't wait for this topic in May

Just to throw a spanner in the works , Simon will find that ratchet on the chassis eventually , with regards this thread though, if the circuit is disabled, which it is when the warning light circuit is faulty, or the warning lamp is on or does not illuminate, thus the system is disabled, can you really say the system has passed an mot with a dangerous fault on it really?

We have to remember that these electronic systems are secondary add on systems and the primary system is still functioning normally, and if this is not so, are we going to say next that vehicles not originally fitted with these systems are dangerous because they are not fitted?

I am sure somebody in VOSA will have thought about it and the safety aspects include costs to repair it for passing an mot!

I understand what you are saying David and I respect we live in an imperfect world system of things, but the manufacturers have passed all the approvals to use these things and make them as safe as possible, so if a system is deactivated it must be safe, although I respect the explosive devices are still fitted and yes maybe a short ciruit could deploy them, but equally so a system in perfect working order could also be deployed by a short circuit that is nothing to do with the original design characteristics of the system.

I have no doubt you will now write a few pages to follow

I know it is a bit of an extreme comparison but the euro fighter is inherently unstable and un-flyable without all the secondary systems but an old chipmunk is perfectly safe.

Some of the modern vehicles are death traps without the esp and tc working but an old moggy is as it always has been.

The point I am trying to say is the differance between driving with the secondary system working and relying on just the primary system has changed so much and the gap is now huge.
Vehicles that are very stable normally will not be without the systems working correctly.

So Yes, I do think that the failure of these systems should be marked as dangerous.

Wally

I don't want to write a book on this subject David , I'll leave that to you LOL

I said previously that VOSA will have looked into this before making a decision , I respect that NTs have their views and that they as I have just read believe in their opinions that some things are dangerous, but with respect some people have completed much research and testing and included medical conditions of people also, and when Air Bags are working perfectly as designed, they are still dangerous to some people if they are triggared.

The manufacturers have also been legally allowed to operate the activation of Air bags, whether passengers or drivers with lower operating pressures, this being for safety reasons. The legal system based on research from the best experienced people in the area of expertise have put their testing and results before the bodies to create the best standard we have got, but as I have briefly said above;

•For the driver side (in addition to medical conditions) - Those who cannot position themselves to properly operate their cars at least 10 inches (25.4 cm) back from the center of the driver airbag cover can have the system deactivated.

I suppose then from VOSAs point of view they know about this and have taken this into consideration when making a decision to allow a Pass and Advise when the Air Bag lamp does not illuminate.

Any person who drives a car with an Air Bag fitted, drivers or passengers can legally opt out of the system being in full operational mode, there are now switches manufactured from the Air Bag manufacturers that allow both the drivers and passengers Air bags to be switched off.

There is a note in the testers manual regarding passing and advising the passengers air bags when they are switched off, so if such a drivers air bag had a switch fitted and was turned off for the above mentioned reasons, which an NT cannot legally prove otherwise, then even if the drivers Air Bag lamp was illuminated at time of test, it would itself become a pass and advise if the switch system was fitted and seen by the NT, or even told by the presenter, and VOSA would to accept this.

An NT cannot prove whether a warning lamp not illuminated makes an Air Bag system dangerous or not, whether the bulb is fitted or has been removed, and it is not the place of the NT to try and justify saying that it is dangerous because an NT is not qualified to make that decision, it is not personally it is fact based on education, training and research carried out using the manufacturer systems, i.e. at Thatchem using crash test dummies etc.

I am just glad then I got the last word in for once

Why are we talking about air bag malfunctions etc on a thread that is about an ESP malfunction lamp,which has to illuminate.
The point is,,,,,, only a small part of the mil lamp can be seen,so is that small part of the mil lamp that can be seen enough for a tester to make a decision??.

You hit the nail on the head phaetonott when you said;

But there again how would I know the car had ESP??? so I wouldn't be looking for an ESP light ............ so I would probably pass without an advise? It's very confusing isn't it?

I may be wrong but if a vehicle has ESP,a switch is present.

Its all well and good in vosa saying that the mot is being brought up to date with the introduction of electronic lamps etc,but the sad fact is that the VSI is still years behind.

Information on what vehicle has what really,really does need to be added to the vsi and made available to testers.
The drivers handbook is very helpful,,,,when its there and trying to source info takes up time,if you know what i mean.

I passed and advise on this coz i know the product well and know what to look for,but another tester may decide different,which can only add to inconsistency in my opinion