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ht
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Appeal - Advice needed. Dec 22, 2020 9:56:00 GMT 1 iturnicar likes this

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Post by ht on Dec 22, 2020 9:56:00 GMT 1

With an assistant try to make use of this description to make your own assessment.

2.3. Steering play

To check steering play:

Make sure the road wheels are on the ground and pointing straight ahead.

Lightly turn the steering wheel left and right as far as possible without moving the road wheels.

Check the amount of free play at the rim of the steering wheel.

If power steering is fitted, the engine must be running.

Steering wheel free play should not be more than:

13mm for rack and pinion steering, or 48mm if there are several joints between the steering wheel and the rack

75mm for non-rack and pinion

These limits are for a standard 380mm diameter steering wheel. The limits should be adjusted up or down accordingly with larger or smaller diameter steering wheels.

Play due to wear or maladjustment must not be confused with apparent play due to the construction of the mechanism, such as caused by the deflection of flexible joints or spring compression in external power steering systems.

Defect Category

(a) Free play in the steering, measured at the rim of the steering wheel is:

(i) excessive

(ii) excessive to the extent that safe steering is affected

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iturnicar
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Appeal - Advice needed. Dec 22, 2020 11:29:57 GMT 1

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Post by iturnicar on Dec 22, 2020 11:29:57 GMT 1

I took it to another garage, they said it doesn't have that part in it either and I should go straight to appealing it
He instantly knew by the wording on the mot test that something wasn't right, he spoke to his MOT tester who also agreed with garage number 2.
So I'm going to go ahead and appeal
Garage 2 said there was no excessive play in the tie rod so I think I'm okay there.

ht
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Appeal - Advice needed. Dec 22, 2020 12:43:31 GMT 1

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Post by ht on Dec 22, 2020 12:43:31 GMT 1

Dec 22, 2020 11:29:57 GMT 1 iturnicar said:

I took it to another garage, they said it doesn't have that part in it either and I should go straight to appealing it
He instantly knew by the wording on the mot test that something wasn't right, he spoke to his MOT tester who also agreed with garage number 2.
So I'm going to go ahead and appeal
Garage 2 said there was no excessive play in the tie rod so I think I'm okay there.

Get your other repairs sorted out satisfactorily first and appeal any further failure by garage 1 if the problem remains with the issue of the track rod end that you dispute.
I cannot see the benefit of your appeal at this stage with other failures present on your vehicle unless you want to waste your time or money.

Last Edit: Dec 22, 2020 12:44:16 GMT 1 by ht -

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iturnicar
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Appeal - Advice needed. Dec 22, 2020 12:49:40 GMT 1

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Post by iturnicar on Dec 22, 2020 12:49:40 GMT 1

Dec 22, 2020 12:43:31 GMT 1 ht said:

Dec 22, 2020 11:29:57 GMT 1 iturnicar said:

I took it to another garage, they said it doesn't have that part in it either and I should go straight to appealing it
He instantly knew by the wording on the mot test that something wasn't right, he spoke to his MOT tester who also agreed with garage number 2.
So I'm going to go ahead and appeal
Garage 2 said there was no excessive play in the tie rod so I think I'm okay there.

Get your other repairs sorted out satisfactorily first and appeal any further failure by garage 1 if the problem remains with the issue of the track rod end that you dispute.
I cannot see the benefit of your appeal at this stage with other failures present on your vehicle unless you want to waste your time or money.

I was told not to get anything done to the vehicle as they could try invalidate it, I have a new car coming, I was going to MOT this to sell it, until I got hit with this MOT. I'm happy to go all the way and then leave a negative review with my story.
I tried to explain to them but they gave me abuse and called me awkward etc. So in my mind, I gave them a chance.
If other faults etc do arise, I'm sure DVSA/VOSA won't take it lightly, considering they've just made something up to try get more money out me?

Last Edit: Dec 22, 2020 12:50:56 GMT 1 by iturnicar -

ht
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Appeal - Advice needed. Dec 22, 2020 12:57:46 GMT 1 iturnicar likes this

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Post by ht on Dec 22, 2020 12:57:46 GMT 1

Dec 22, 2020 12:49:40 GMT 1 iturnicar said:

Dec 22, 2020 12:43:31 GMT 1 ht said:

Get your other repairs sorted out satisfactorily first and appeal any further failure by garage 1 if the problem remains with the issue of the track rod end that you dispute.
I cannot see the benefit of your appeal at this stage with other failures present on your vehicle unless you want to waste your time or money.

I was told not to get anything done to the vehicle as they could try invalidate it, I have a new car coming, I was going to MOT this to sell it, until I got hit with this MOT. I'm happy to go all the way and then leave a negative review with my story.
I tried to explain to them but they gave me abuse and called me awkward etc. So in my mind, I gave them a chance.
If other faults etc do arise, I'm sure DVSA/VOSA won't take it lightly, considering they've just made something up to try get more money out me?

Let us know how you get on

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iturnicar
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Appeal - Advice needed. Dec 22, 2020 12:59:24 GMT 1

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Post by iturnicar on Dec 22, 2020 12:59:24 GMT 1

Dec 22, 2020 12:57:46 GMT 1 ht said:

Dec 22, 2020 12:49:40 GMT 1 iturnicar said:

I was told not to get anything done to the vehicle as they could try invalidate it, I have a new car coming, I was going to MOT this to sell it, until I got hit with this MOT. I'm happy to go all the way and then leave a negative review with my story.
I tried to explain to them but they gave me abuse and called me awkward etc. So in my mind, I gave them a chance.
If other faults etc do arise, I'm sure DVSA/VOSA won't take it lightly, considering they've just made something up to try get more money out me?

Let us know how you get on

Thank you bud, with all your expertise I'm sure I'm on the winning side lol.
I'll gladly let you all know.

ht
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Appeal - Advice needed. Dec 22, 2020 13:49:28 GMT 1

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Post by ht on Dec 22, 2020 13:49:28 GMT 1

Dec 22, 2020 12:59:24 GMT 1 iturnicar said:

Dec 22, 2020 12:57:46 GMT 1 ht said:

Let us know how you get on

Thank you bud, with all your expertise I'm sure I'm on the winning side lol.
I'll gladly let you all know.

You seem to have an eye on a prize, only I struggle to see what that is though if your appeal doesn't result in a pass on the day.

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wally
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Appeal - Advice needed. Dec 22, 2020 14:15:10 GMT 1 via mobile ht and rocket like this

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Post by wally on Dec 22, 2020 14:15:10 GMT 1

The only other option would be to carry out any other repairs necessary and return to garage 1 for a re-test. If they then continue to fail the item in question (just to clarify it is the joint within the steering rack gaiter and not the gaiter itself) then ask for an appeal form and go from there.

stealth
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Appeal - Advice needed. Dec 22, 2020 14:28:07 GMT 1 via mobile Dynamo and rocket like this

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Post by stealth on Dec 22, 2020 14:28:07 GMT 1

Dec 22, 2020 12:43:31 GMT 1 ht said:

Get your other repairs sorted out satisfactorily first and appeal any further failure by garage 1 if the problem remains with the issue of the track rod end that you dispute.
I cannot see the benefit of your appeal at this stage with other failures present on your vehicle unless you want to waste your time or money.

I would recommend leaving exactly as it stands, with no repairs until the appeal has been conducted.

If I was to agree with you, that would make us both wrong !

Dynamo
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Appeal - Advice needed. Dec 22, 2020 14:35:16 GMT 1 rocket likes this

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Post by Dynamo on Dec 22, 2020 14:35:16 GMT 1

Dec 22, 2020 9:14:00 GMT 1 ht said:

Dec 22, 2020 8:43:51 GMT 1 iturnicar said:

Okay that clears that
So it shouldn't of failed on the inner part 'gaiter'? that would fall under steering play on inner joints yeah?

It should only fail if play in the inner joint equates to more than 13mm of play detected at the steering based on a steering wheel measuring 380mm
it may be possible or not that the play is there but the wrong criteria has been used by garage 1 to apply the failure.

No I don't agree. 13 mm is a measurement taken directly from the steering wheel itself. An assistant cannot be used to advise when a road wheel moves and you are rocking the steering wheel. You also cannot watch the road wheel while an assistant rocks the steering wheel. Also the steering wheel in the said vehicle might not be 380 mm therefore tolerances will change for the amount of free play to be detected. Another point I must make is that when the inner track rod ball joint/bearing are worn then that free play/wear will not show up at the steering wheel when checking the nearside front. A visual observation of the drivers side front road wheel when rocking the steering wheel is the only part of the test that could cause a fail here.

Dec 22, 2020 12:43:31 GMT 1 ht said:

Dec 22, 2020 11:29:57 GMT 1 iturnicar said:

I took it to another garage, they said it doesn't have that part in it either and I should go straight to appealing it
He instantly knew by the wording on the mot test that something wasn't right, he spoke to his MOT tester who also agreed with garage number 2.
So I'm going to go ahead and appeal
Garage 2 said there was no excessive play in the tie rod so I think I'm okay there.

Get your other repairs sorted out satisfactorily first and appeal any further failure by garage 1 if the problem remains with the issue of the track rod end that you dispute.
I cannot see the benefit of your appeal at this stage with other failures present on your vehicle unless you want to waste your time or money.

No I must again disagree. It is very important that the condition of the said vehicle is left exactly as the original test condition. Once you start going down the road of fixing some parts and leaving others then the original tester has a valid argument that the condition of the vehicle has changed and the complainant has improved the defects now being complained about.

You can't "unbreak" the broken,you can only break the unbroken to break the break of the unbroken, for me, you cannot unbreak me, for I am already broken,so you have no need to break the break because I am not unbroken.

Dynamo
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Post by Dynamo on Dec 22, 2020 14:36:29 GMT 1

Dec 22, 2020 14:28:07 GMT 1 stealth said:

Dec 22, 2020 12:43:31 GMT 1 ht said:

Get your other repairs sorted out satisfactorily first and appeal any further failure by garage 1 if the problem remains with the issue of the track rod end that you dispute.
I cannot see the benefit of your appeal at this stage with other failures present on your vehicle unless you want to waste your time or money.

I would recommend leaving exactly as it stands, with no repairs until the appeal has been conducted.

it took me 7 minutes to write my reply to ht ste

You can't "unbreak" the broken,you can only break the unbroken to break the break of the unbroken, for me, you cannot unbreak me, for I am already broken,so you have no need to break the break because I am not unbroken.

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Post by David on Dec 22, 2020 14:52:01 GMT 1

Dec 21, 2020 19:07:54 GMT 1 iturnicar said:

So my car failed it's MOT at garage number 1 for..

Nearside front inner track rod end ball joint has excessive play (2.1.3 (b) (i))
---

There was a different reason for my suspicions about garage number 1, it also failed on a bush and the guy started going off about how it would need welding done etc.

Anyway garage number 2 said.. none of that was needed 'the welding and subframe coming off' and also said

'This car does not have an inner track rod end it has a tie rod. The tie rod has slight play but it's not excessive and should not have failed.'

Garage number 1 is adamant in there story and number 2 said above.

Garage 2 also mentioned I have a steering rack.

To be fair, I think the tester has selected the wrong Failure item.

Is this your Failure?

Offside Front Suspension arm pin or bush excessively worn Rearward bush (5.3.4 (a) (i))
Nearside Front Inner Track rod end ball joint has excessive play (2.1.3 (b) (i))
Parking brake efficiency below requirements (1.4.2 (a) (i))
Repair as soon as possible (minor defects):
Brake fluid warning lamp illuminated (1.1.10 (f))
Monitor and repair if necessary (advisories):
Nearside Stop lamp(s) non-obligatory stop lamp not working (4.3.1 (a) (ii))
Offside Stop lamp(s) non-obligatory stop lamp not working (4.3.1 (a) (ii))
Nearside Front Suspension arm pin or bush worn but not resulting in excessive movement (5.3.4 (a) (i))

If it is I think he means outer track rod end ball joint

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Post by lampy on Dec 22, 2020 15:20:19 GMT 1

You can have an (n/s say) steering rack inner joint with excessive play in it/knackered etc and the o/s is ok (no play) testing as per book wheels on deck you will not detect any free play at the "steering wheel".
I think this is an oversight on DVSA's part as you can have enough movement at the roadwheel to make the vehicle dangerous but using DVSA's testing methods you cannot fail it.

Regardless of how you want to interpret it the fail is for free play detected at the steering wheel nowhere else.

The beatings will continue until moral improves !
The newness has gone off that bit!!!

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Post by baz657 on Dec 22, 2020 15:27:50 GMT 1

Although we hopefully all agree that the steering inner ball joints should be fail items and replaced, the powers that be decided long ago they wouldn't (unless the free play was detected at the steering wheel when both sides are very severely worn). They also said at the same time that prop shafts would never be a fail in the MOT test - we all know what happened there. Maybe there will be a rule change in the future but until then all we can do is advise on the condition.

Last Edit: Dec 22, 2020 15:30:04 GMT 1 by baz657 -

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Appeal - Advice needed. Dec 22, 2020 16:43:17 GMT 1

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Post by David on Dec 22, 2020 16:43:17 GMT 1

Dec 22, 2020 15:20:19 GMT 1 lampy said:

You can have an (n/s say) steering rack inner joint with excessive play in it/knackered etc and the o/s is ok (no play) testing as per book wheels on deck you will not detect any free play at the "steering wheel".
I think this is an oversight on DVSA's part as you can have enough movement at the roadwheel to make the vehicle dangerous but using DVSA's testing methods you cannot fail it.

Regardless of how you want to interpret it the fail is for free play detected at the steering wheel nowhere else.

I think the tester has selected the wrong RfR location possibly.

Can't blame DVSA for that lampy, no need to get the tester in trouble either.

iturnicar would be best off clarifying that particular failure with the tester before trotting off to DVSA. He has to manually select "Inner" from the drop down menu on the Track Rod End RfR page when selected so could be an error. If not an error he should redo during retest to an Advisory

Last Edit: Dec 22, 2020 16:47:50 GMT 1 by David -

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iturnicar
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Appeal - Advice needed. Dec 22, 2020 17:09:33 GMT 1

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Post by iturnicar on Dec 22, 2020 17:09:33 GMT 1

Guys when I took it back the tester/mot person refused to own upto it, pretty much laughed at me telling me hes done it right 'every car has that part apparently'
He even had a spare ramp and refused to even look, then the other part of the garage 'they have mot part & repair part' the repair part took me over, they hoisted it up, done there little wiggle left n right on the tire, told me theres play n thats it, he even pointed towards what I know now is the gaiter, said you're best getting them both done, 'inner and outter I'm guessing'

So yeah, I think they either truly believe they're right or they truly believe they're right, I don't understand it personally. It was bad enough trying to talk to them the first time without looking like an idiot trying to explain.. all I got for the effort was called awkward and 'go ahead and appeal it' for my time trying to help them understand the reason

Last Edit: Dec 22, 2020 17:18:33 GMT 1 by iturnicar -

Dynamo MOT tester He who is without oil shall throw the first Rod. See the book of Compression's 8.7.1 Posts: 4,305 Class tested: 4 Last Online: Apr 29, 2017 15:36:01 GMT 1 Likes: 1,314	Appeal - Advice needed. Dec 22, 2020 17:37:47 GMT 1 rocket and iturnicar like this Back to Top Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by Dynamo on Dec 22, 2020 17:37:47 GMT 1 Some people are difficult to talk to. you tried your best by the sounds of it.
	You can't "unbreak" the broken,you can only break the unbroken to break the break of the unbroken, for me, you cannot unbreak me, for I am already broken,so you have no need to break the break because I am not unbroken.

ht
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Post by ht on Dec 22, 2020 19:54:31 GMT 1

Dec 22, 2020 14:15:10 GMT 1 wally said:

The only other option would be to carry out any other repairs necessary and return to garage 1 for a re-test. If they then continue to fail the item in question (just to clarify it is the joint within the steering rack gaiter and not the gaiter itself) then ask for an appeal form and go from there.

👆👆👆👆 I agree with wally 👆👆👆👆

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aylesburyjock Administrator Posts: 2,762 Class tested: 4, 7 Last Online: Apr 24, 2024 18:59:47 GMT 1 Likes: 1,862	Appeal - Advice needed. Dec 22, 2020 20:07:15 GMT 1 via mobile Dynamo likes this Back to Top Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by aylesburyjock on Dec 22, 2020 20:07:15 GMT 1 Did someone change the criteria for an appeal? If you want to appeal you must not have any repairs done.

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Post by rocket on Dec 22, 2020 21:04:25 GMT 1

Dec 22, 2020 17:37:47 GMT 1 Dynamo said:

Some people are difficult to talk to. you tried your best by the sounds of it.

We've seen that on here 😂 I've never had excessive play at the steering wheel for a rack and peanut off a worn rack only off a worn UJ or a loose pinch bolt

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