High level stop lamps

Nov 24, 2013 9:43:48 GMT 1 tim said:

Nov 23, 2013 21:13:33 GMT 1 davidg said:

My AE rang VOSA while I was present, I didn't get the full facts what was said over the phone because I did not directly talk to VOSA, but after the AE had finished talking to them, I asked him what action should I take, he replied, VOSA said you are right, if now we disconnect a stop lamp which we know was working to pass it, we have broken the rules, the lamp must be repaired or replaced before a pass certificate is issued, this is because you know that the lamp is connected and you have no element of doubt that initially the lamp was now not connected, i.e. it is a working lamp and must satisfy the requirements of the test.

So we have ordered a new lamp and until then it is a fail criteria.

Davidg

Why didn't you include this piece of information in your original post David ?

If I had of said that tim then there would have been no point to the thread. If I asked a question and immediately gave the solution, what would be the point in asking the question?

I wanted to read other members views first.

Nov 24, 2013 1:53:05 GMT 1 aylesburyjock said:

The manual is clear. any extra stop lamps fitted and connected must operate. You were informed by your mechanic this lamp is not connected. Your manner in your posts suggests you believe him. If it is not connected it does not fail. There is no loophole there. There is no grey area. Now I personally believe they should all work. I believe personally that the high level brake lamp is a great advance in grabbing your attention, and all cars should be fitted with one and they should have to be operational to pass the test. This is not so. Ah well.... I suppose I will just have to get over it. And carry on testing according to the inspection manual, without trying to find a deeper meaning in what VOSA might have intended. Not connected - not failed. If I could perhaps ask you to have another read of that note in the manual now that we have had a chance to discuss this, now I do mean just read it and tell me what it says. Please?

Straight from the manual aylesburyjock.

Additional stop lamps fitted and connected must be tested.

The high level additional stop lamp was fitted, it must have been connected because I applied the reason for rejection;

not visible from a reasonable distance due to excessive deterioration.

No element of doubt it is fitted, it is working and it has failed for not being visible from a reasonable distance, what more can be said?

Now where an additional lamp is fitted but does not illuminate, thus giving a element of doubt that the lamp is not connected, then VOSA are saying;

Where extra lamps are fitted and there is doubt as to whether they are connected, the benefit of this doubt should be given to the presenter.

Nowhere does it say that the NT or a mechanic has the legal right to disconnect road safety items by unplugging a stop lamp to prevent it from working and think that a pass and advise is a get out of jail free card.

That statement above only applies where the additional stop lamp did not illuminate at the time of original test and the tester at that point would have an element of doubt, because the tester has never seen the lamp work, but once seen working, nobody can have an element of doubt that it works.

Nov 24, 2013 11:38:55 GMT 1 pete said:

davidg

personally I would have to hear or read it from the horses mouth (VOSA) and I did two weeks ago on my refresher course and it was made very clear to all present that if a third brake lamp is fitted it is an additional lamp which means, and this is what the trainer Mr.Paul Russell said, regardless of whether it is a full test or a retest it must be tested as presented at the time  and if not working and there is doubt to whether it is connected then it is a pass and advise. you said you were told it was disconnected davidg so it is a P+A and not a fail as you said. your information from VOSA was via your AE and is therefore hear say as you cant be sure what he told you is accurate. my information however is direct from a VOSA trainer and I would urge you to contact VOSA yourself via e-mail for clarification in writing so you don't make the same mistake again as you find it very difficult to believe anyone on the forum. 

pete I have re-read your post above, and highlighted the sections necessary. Taking one at a time;

It was made very clear to you that two weeks ago if a third lamp is fitted it is an additional lamp which means;

regardless of whether it is a full test or retest, it must be tested as presented, and

if not working, and there is doubt to whether it is connected then it is a pass and advise.

I was told the lamp had been disconnected so it is a pass and advise.

pete I feel you are still misunderstanding what I am trying to explain.

Read very carefully.

Your trainer said;

If a third lamp is fitted it is an additional lamp, which means regardless of whether it is a full test or retest, it must be tested as presented, and if not working, and there is doubt to whether it is connected then it is a pass and advise.

OK let me spell that out for you pete what that means in my example.

1/ A third lamp is fitted.

2/ At the time of test it was established that the lamp was connected and did illuminate very slightly causing it to be failed for poor visible illumination from a reasonable distance.

At this point - the lamp is fitted and it is connected, no element of doubt and no passing and advising like you advise your trainer is telling you.

The mechanic could not fix the lamp so he unplugged its wiring telling me that it is now disconnected. I was uneasy with this situation because at the time of test, there was no element of doubt the lamp was connected and working.

So I asked the AE to contact VOSA to advise of the correct standard to apply for this situation.

VOSA advised that because the lamp has been proven that it is fitted and connected, it would be the wrong course of action to disconnect it and pass and advise it.

The example in the manual information column is referring to where an additional stop lamp is fitted and you have not seen that additional lamp work, therefore if you cannot prove that It is connected, then there is your element of doubt to pass and advise, like your trainer is telling you, which does not apply to an additional stop lamp that has been proven to work.

This is the area of concern I had from the blog VOSA wrote;

Before failing an additional stop lamp for not working, you must be able to prove – without dismantling – that the lamp is complete and the wiring to the lamp is connected.

The sentence above I had proven.

The manual states that: “Where extra lamps are fitted and there is doubt as to whether they are connected, the benefit of this doubt should be given to the presenter.”

Exactly where does doubt come in?

I tested the lamp and it was connected.

Where does VOSA in that blog give anyone the right to just disconnect a lamp and say that the NT now has a benefit of doubt?

That blog is a very old blog and modern vehicles don't have lenses fitted without internals anymore, maybe they now need to update their blog.

I still stand by what I was told and am going to make a further enquiry tomorrow with regards this subject. VOSA need to update their outdated information with regards to current vehicles and their manufacturer instructions I think.

Nov 24, 2013 22:17:51 GMT 1 aylesburyjock said:

Nov 24, 2013 18:54:29 GMT 1 davidg said:

Before failing an additional stop lamp for not working, you must be able to prove – without dismantling – that the lamp is complete and the wiring to the lamp is connected.


This is my final effort to advise you. On the initial test the lamps were very dim proving that they were connected, therefore you took the correct course of action in failing it.
On the retest, where, in your own words above, you must be able to prove - without dismantling - that the lamp is complete and the wiring to the lamp is connected, not only did you not prove the aforementioned - you were actually informed that this was not in fact the case. How clear do VOSA need to make it? In fact I don't know how they can make it any clearer than that. You have actually quoted it here yourself, yet still you are arguing against it. This is it for me, you carry on davidg. You do it your way.

The problem is aylesburyjock that I didn't believe that a person could just disconnect a (proven) working lamp and then the NT can just pass and advise it, the whole idea of failing a working lamp and then passing it not working never sounded or felt right to me, which is why I asked the AE to contact VOSA, who from the AE's own words he said they agree with me, so maybe I am right or maybe now both myself and the VOSA advisor to my AE got it wrong, but like I said earlier another phone call will be made to clarify once and for all.